Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

Last post 11-14-2008 3:52 PM by the iceman. 14 replies.
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  • 11-06-2008 7:40 PM

    Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    Dems Target Private Retirement Accounts

    Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    By Karen McMahan

    November 04, 2008

    RALEIGH — Democrats in the U.S. House have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate workers’ personal retirement accounts — including 401(k)s and IRAs — and convert them to accounts managed by the Social Security Administration.

    Triggered by the financial crisis the past two months, the hearings reportedly were meant to stem losses incurred by many workers and retirees whose 401(k) and IRA balances have been shrinking rapidly.

    The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers’ retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

    Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor, in prepared remarks for the hearing on “The Impact of the Financial Crisis on Workers’ Retirement Security,” blamed Wall Street for the financial crisis and said his committee will “strengthen and protect Americans’ 401(k)s, pensions, and other retirement plans” and the “Democratic Congress will continue to conduct this much-needed oversight on behalf of the American people.”

    Currently, 401(k) plans allow Americans to invest pretax money and their employers match up to a defined percentage, which not only increases workers’ retirement savings but also reduces their annual income tax. The balances are fully inheritable, subject to income tax, meaning workers pass on their wealth to their heirs, unlike Social Security. Even when they leave an employer and go to one that doesn’t offer a 401(k) or pension, workers can transfer their balances to a qualified IRA.

    Mandating Equality

    Ghilarducci’s plan first appeared in a paper for the Economic Policy Institute: Agenda for Shared Prosperity on Nov. 20, 2007, in which she said GRAs will rescue the flawed American retirement income system (www.sharedprosperity.org/bp204/bp204.pdf).

    The current retirement system, Ghilarducci said, “exacerbates income and wealth inequalities” because tax breaks for voluntary retirement accounts are “skewed to the wealthy because it is easier for them to save, and because they receive bigger tax breaks when they do.”

    Lauding GRAs as a way to effectively increase retirement savings, Ghilarducci wrote that savings incentives are unequal for rich and poor families because tax deferrals “provide a much larger ‘carrot’ to wealthy families than to middle-class families — and none whatsoever for families too poor to owe taxes.”

    GRAs would guarantee a fixed 3 percent annual rate of return, although later in her article Ghilarducci explained that participants would not “earn a 3% real return in perpetuity.” In place of tax breaks workers now receive for contributions and thus a lower tax rate, workers would receive $600 annually from the government, inflation-adjusted. For low-income workers whose annual contributions are less than $600, the government would deposit whatever amount it would take to equal the minimum $600 for all participants.

    In a radio interview with Kirby Wilbur in Seattle on Oct. 27, 2008, Ghilarducci explained that her proposal doesn’t eliminate the tax breaks, rather, “I’m just rearranging the tax breaks that are available now for 401(k)s and spreading — spreading the wealth.”

    All workers would have 5 percent of their annual pay deducted from their paychecks and deposited to the GRA. They would still be paying Social Security and Medicare taxes, as would the employers. The GRA contribution would be shared equally by the worker and the employee. Employers no longer would be able to write off their contributions. Any capital gains would be taxable year-on-year.

    Analysts point to another disturbing part of the plan. With a GRA, workers could bequeath only half of their account balances to their heirs, unlike full balances from existing 401(k) and IRA accounts. For workers who die after retiring, they could bequeath just their own contributions plus the interest but minus any benefits received and minus the employer contributions.

    Another justification for Ghilarducci’s plan is to eliminate investment risk. In her testimony, Ghilarducci said, “humans often lack the foresight, discipline, and investing skills required to sustain a savings plan.” She cited the 2004 HSBC global survey on the Future of Retirement, in which she claimed that “a third of Americans wanted the government to force them to save more for retirement.”

    What the survey actually reported was that 33 percent of Americans wanted the government to “enforce additional private savings,” a vastly different meaning than mandatory government-run savings. Of the four potential sources of retirement support, which were government, employer, family, and self, the majority of Americans said “self” was the most important contributor, followed by “government.” When broken out by family income, low-income U.S. households said the “government” was the most important retirement support, whereas high-income families ranked “government” last and “self” first (www.hsbc.com/retirement).

    On Oct. 22, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Argentinean government had seized all private pension and retirement accounts to fund government programs and to address a ballooning deficit. Fearing an economic collapse, foreign investors quickly pulled out, forcing the Argentinean stock market to shut down several times. More than 10 years ago, nationalization of private savings sent Argentina’s economy into a long-term downward spiral.

    Income and Wealth Redistribution

    The majority of witness testimony during recent hearings before the House Committee on Education and Labor showed that congressional Democrats intend to address income and wealth inequality through redistribution.

    On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that “from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw” in tax code incentives because they are “provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.”

    Even people who don’t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans, he said. “There is no obvious reason why lower-income taxpayers or people who do not file income taxes should get smaller incentives (or no tax incentives at all),” Greenstein said.

    “Moving to refundable tax credits for promoting socially worthwhile activities would be an important step toward enhancing progressivity in the tax code in a way that would improve economic efficiency and performance at the same time,” Greenstein said, and “reducing barriers to labor organizing, preserving the real value of the minimum wage, and the other workforce security concerns . . . would contribute to an economy with less glaring and sharply widening inequality.”

    When asked whether committee members seriously were considering Ghilarducci’s proposal for GSAs, Aaron Albright, press secretary for the Committee on Education and Labor, said Miller and other members were listening to all ideas.

    Miller’s biggest priority has been on legislation aimed at greater transparency in 401(k)s and other retirement plan administration, specifically regarding fees, Albright said, and he sent a link to a Fox News interview of Miller on Oct. 24, 2008, to show that the congressman had not made a decision.

    After repeated questions asked by Neil Cavuto of Fox News, Miller said he would not be in favor of “killing the 401(k)” or of “killing the tax advantages for 401(k)s.”

    Arguing against liberal prescriptions, William Beach, director of the Center for Data Analysis at the Heritage Foundation, testified on Oct. 24 that the “roots of the current crisis are firmly planted in public policy mistakes” by the Federal Reserve and Congress. He cautioned Congress against raising taxes, increasing burdensome regulations, or withdrawing from international product or capital markets. “Congress can ill afford to repeat the awesome errors of its predecessor in the early days of the Great Depression,” Beach said.

    Instead, Beach said, Congress could best address the financial crisis by making the tax reductions of 2001 and 2003 permanent, stopping dependence on demand-side stimulus, lowering the corporate profits tax, and reducing or eliminating taxes on capital gains and dividends.

    Testifying before the same committee in early October, Jerry Bramlett, president and CEO of BenefitStreet, Inc., an independent 401(k) plan administrator, said one of the best ways to ensure retirement security would be to have the U.S. Department of Labor develop educational materials for workers so they could make better investment decisions, not exchange equity investments in retirement accounts for Treasury bills, as proposed in the GSAs.

    Should Sen. Barack Obama win the presidency, congressional Democrats might have stronger support for their “spreading the wealth” agenda. On Oct. 27, the American Thinker posted a video of an interview with Obama on public radio station WBEZ-FM from 2001.

    In the interview, Obama said, “The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.” The Constitution says only what “the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you,” and Obama added that the Warren Court wasn’t that radical.

    Although in 2001 Obama said he was not “optimistic about bringing major redistributive change through the courts,” as president, he would likely have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court justices.

    “The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,” Obama said.

    Karen McMahan is a contributing editor of Carolina Journal.


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  • 11-06-2008 9:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    Thanks for posting hadn't heard about it, will be keeping track of this for sure.

  • 11-07-2008 2:11 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    WOW GOLLY HOO WEE  $600 a year from the government, that will buy a lot of CAT FOOD  grab your wallets, purses & ankles its going to be fun                                                      cant wait to see how long it takes our supreme and lilly white leaders to figure out how to get their $hithooks on that money just like social security!!

  • 11-07-2008 2:27 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    mr magoo i love your articles and don't know what to belive anymore . my ADD prevents me from reading all the way through without being distracted so i have a hard time following along, from what i can tell is i should buy gold instead of a 401k.

  • 11-07-2008 2:39 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    Thats what Karl Maulden really wanted to say in the American express ads GOLD accepted everywhere DONT LEAVE HOME or THE COUNTRY without it!!

  • 11-07-2008 5:31 AM In reply to

    • danf
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-03-2008
    • Posts 403

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    What this tells me is that the party which currently wields nearly all power in our government wants to protect us from ourselves by managing our retirements for us.  They want to take the retirement plans that we have worked hard to build up and put them under the full control of the Social Security Administration because of the huge success that they have had managing other funds entrusted to them...

    I'm just glad I'm not relying on either social [IN]security or my 201k (it was a 401k before the crash :p) account to get me through retirement.

  • 11-07-2008 8:59 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    My Dad started working and paying into SS at it's conception, and paid his whole life, and died before he was able to collect a dime. Looks like it will be the same for me, except the govt will have emptied the fund before I am eligible to get benefits.

    You know exactly what will happen if you let them take control of your 401Ks.

    And why mess with your 401ks anyway?  For more money. 

  • 11-07-2008 9:04 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    surveybob:

    My Dad started working and paying into SS at it's conception, and paid his whole life, and died before he was able to collect a dime. Looks like it will be the same for me, except the govt will have emptied the fund before I am eligible to get benefits.

    You know exactly what will happen if you let them take control of your 401Ks.

    And why mess with your 401ks anyway?  For more money. 

     

     

    Exactly, the government wants to control every aspect of our lives.

  • 11-07-2008 1:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    norfed:

    mr magoo i love your articles and don't know what to belive anymore . my ADD prevents me from reading all the way through without being distracted so i have a hard time following along, from what i can tell is i should buy gold instead of a 401k.

    **************

    I stopped investing in my 401K and the stock market in 1999 because I knew a financial reconing was on the horizon.  I own gold/silver and cash and a few homes.  We are in the beginning of the end for our economy.  The politicians are just fumbing around trying to juice the system, but sound economics of the Austrian kind are beyond their comprehension and without returning to Capitalism we are just going to continue into the deep dark depths of perpetual economic failure.

  • 11-07-2008 2:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

     Mr Magoo this article is pure B.S. The federal gov't cannot take private funds like those in a 401k, all the gov't wants to do is protect pensions that are given by some companies and organziations that are non contributary.

    I've been reading many of your post and your sounding more and more like your going over the edge. Start reading other material because what your reading now in fiction at best.

  • 11-07-2008 2:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    I think the title of this post and the interpretation of the article's facts are misleading. I don't think anyone in the article was discussing confiscation per se, just providing the option for employees to roll 401(k)s and IRAs into more-secure, if less-profitable, government bonds etc. I'm not sure exactly how this differs in the United States, but in Canada, RRSPs (the equivalent of IRAs) can contain a mix of securities types including stock portfolios, Guaranteed Investment Certificates (government bonds), etc. There is a Canada Pension Plan that all workers pay into (deducted from payroll, like Social Security), and occasionally provincial plans as well. Neither of these prevent people or companies from investing privately, either individually or as part of a pension fund.

    The issue is, with the government deficit being so high, and a lot of the value in the market having 'evaporated', I think the basic idea of encouraging investment into government bonds / GICs is a good one. Was the evaporated value in the markets linked to anything real, like profits or earnings? No. So maybe it is time for the economy to contract to a more natural, sustainable level, linked more to reality than to bubbles.

  • 11-07-2008 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    majik13:

     Mr Magoo this article is pure B.S. The federal gov't cannot take private funds like those in a 401k, all the gov't wants to do is protect pensions that are given by some companies and organziations that are non contributary.

    I've been reading many of your post and your sounding more and more like your going over the edge. Start reading other material because what your reading now in fiction at best.

    Majik, love to bust your bubble, pelosi was speaking about this before the election! and remember social security was set up as a fund not a vast pool to steal from (not borrow as that implies the intent to repay)

  • 11-07-2008 8:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    La LaLa La La ... the government can and will do whatever it wants Majik ... you are in for a rude awakening.  Keep dreaming my friend! 

    majik13:

     Mr Magoo this article is pure B.S. The federal gov't cannot take private funds like those in a 401k, all the gov't wants to do is protect pensions that are given by some companies and organziations that are non contributary.

    I've been reading many of your post and your sounding more and more like your going over the edge. Start reading other material because what your reading now in fiction at best.

     
  • 11-14-2008 11:58 AM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    Let's Make 401(k)s And IRAs More Like Pension Plans

     

    Who's confiscating your 401(k) and IRA? Dateline Raleigh, NC, November 6, 2008: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House of Representatives discuss confiscating our 401(k)s and IRAs, by Carolina Journal Online reporter Karen McMahan.  This shocking pronouncement is certainly an attention grabber, which if even partially true, would have an impact on nearly every employed and retired American. The basis for the report is testimony before the House Committee on Education and Labor in early October. Dr. Teresa Ghilarducci is one of many witnesses (scholars, retirees, activists, an investment mogul, and benefits experts) who were interviewed by the committee members. (I was skipped over once again, but a receptive person in the HCEL was willing to forward a listing of my articles to the right person. I expect an invitation to testify momentarily)   McMahan writes: "Dr. Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research, drew the most attention and criticism. She proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers' retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration." Several people have asked me to comment on the probability of such a radical approach ever getting any support, much less actually being implemented.  Most feel that even the most socialistic of legislators would give the doctor's ideas a quick thumbs down. I agree that they should, but part of the concept, tuned up "capitalistically", could be precisely what this investment doctor would order. Years ago, a not-quite-as-sophisticated-as-the-internet rumor mill spread a story that the Feds were scouring the countryside, knocking on doors, and confiscating $100 bills. The purpose of the venture was to put an end to the income-tax-dodging underground economy of the 80's. Babysitters panicked, restaurateurs iced their C-notes in freezers, and self-employed franchisees plotted Caponesque money laundering schemes. Nothing happened then that a 10% (or lower) Federal sales tax (coupled with seriously lower income taxes at all levels) wouldn't cure today. So as scary as a 401(k) or IRA confiscation plan would be now, the panic will likely fade quietly away, just like the $100 bill outrage of the 80's. The underground tax dodging continues, and at a magnitude that dwarfs any temporary tax relief that is afforded today's self-directed savings plans. One would think that, as a society, we would be capable of pouncing upon opportunities for brilliant solutions to problems of fairness like these. We just can't seem to get out of our own political way. The fix to the retirement investment account fiasco is only slightly more complex than the incredibly easy solution to Social Security. Dr. Ghilarducci has presented a socialist solution to a problem that could easily be dealt with using rudimentary controls that would limit the amount of risk allowed inside these tax deferred savings devices. She also ignores the fact that most self-directed money lies in voluntary, privately sponsored, employee benefit programs--- emphasis on voluntary and private. Self-directed retirement accounts could be controlled as to content and asset allocation to: 1) assure that a reasonable proportion of all accounts are guaranteed as to principal and interest, and 2) preclude ownership of high-risk securities. I'm not sure that the good doctor grasps the distinction between a self-directed, defined-contribution, investment plan and a guaranteed, defined-benefit, pension plan. Most plan participants are led to believe that the former is just as secure as the latter. Sorry, Charlie.  The problems are to control the speculative enthusiasm of the unqualified self-directors, and to create a way for captive beneficiaries of the phantom Social Security trust fund to augment their guaranteed retirement benefits. A few simple standards would create a whole new set of conservatively managed "retirement plan only" mutual funds, with reduced management fees--- in deference to their captive audience and less speculative composition. Plan participants would not be able to speculate with their savings as they are today.  Some form of oversight would be needed to assure that no raw speculation was allowed into the new breed of standard mutual funds and CEFs. Instead, Dr. Ghilarducci visualizes all your no-longer-self-directed money finding a new home in the Social Security Administration's toy chest--- thus transforming a behemoth bureaucracy into an investment management giant! This is just too alarming for words---  But, what if, instead of a Guaranteed Retirement Account, we adopted a whole new system based on the SSRIA? (Google it.) No, it doesn't exist yet, but the private sector could certainly provide it in a commission free, guaranteed income only contract, tomorrow.  The SSA could oversee the providors, who collectively have thousands of years' experience, and thousands of investment professionals capable of managing guaranteed income vehicles. Just think about it. All employees could opt out of Social Security, and make a smaller, mandated contribution to their one SSRIA.  Employers could include the SSRIA as an option for both self-directed and matching contributions. Only SIBORAP Tier One securities would be acceptable investments. Existing Social Security balances could be frozen or directed to the personal SSRIAs. This approach, admittedly far too simple for consideration, would create thousands of new jobs, eliminate the Social Security funding mess, add billions to personal disposable incomes, and with supervision, allow employers to cut prices, increase salaries and dividends, and create jobs. Some would say that this approach can't work with our broken system, as evidenced by the legions of Wall Street fat cats who encourage the creation of toxic products and who routinely pilfer shareholder treasuries for ludicrous sums. Shareholders should solve that problem, not the government--- but the government could help if they chose to.  Pure capitalism disappeared years ago, traded in for a less efficient, but fairer, regulated version. It's the regulators and their overseers that failed, leading us multi-derivative miles from the pure simplicity of stocks and bonds. Steve Selenguthttp://www.sancoservices.com/http://www.kiawahgolfinvestmentseminars.com Professional Investment Management from 1979Author of: "The Brainwashing of the American Investor: The Book that Wall Street Does Not Want YOU to Read", and "A Millionaire's Secret Investment Strategy"

     

  • 11-14-2008 3:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Democratic leaders in the U.S. House discuss confiscating 401(k)s, IRAs

    The thing that really pi$$ed me off was pelosi standing up saying we should share our 401k with the illegals because they dont have a pension plan. perhaps she would share her lifetime salary with them, as the illegal part doesn't seem to bother her

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