Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

Last post 07-31-2008 9:14 PM by surveybob. 162 replies.
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  • 07-01-2008 5:33 PM

    Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    Before I post what I originally wrote let me preface this by saying that this is an uncharacteristic venting of frustration.There will surely be many who are upset by it. I will have zero problems discussing it I ask only that we all occupy the realm of logic as we do so.I will also include the article that set me off. Because it is EXACTLY this kind of mentality that we as a nation must stop.If you are a republican or conservative know that as individuals I believe that the fast majority are good people. Again they are just taken in by leaders who don't have their best interests at heart. And are therefore not truly the will of most conservatives or republicans.....that actual people...behind the party so to speak.For reference I support gay marriage, gun rights, and the death penalty....all because logic tells me that those positions make the most sense and logic tells me that what follows.....makes sense cheers -DR

     

       

     

     
     
  • 07-01-2008 5:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    Here is the article that set me off

     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25447998/

     

    or text

     

    FINDLAY, Ohio - On his corner of College Street, Jim Peterman stares at the four American flags planted in his front lawn and rubs his forehead. Peterman, 74, is a retired worker at Cooper Tire, a father of two, an Air Force veteran and a self-described patriot. He took one trip to Washington in 1989 -- best vacation of his life -- and bought a statue of the Washington Monument that he still displays in a glass case in his living room.

    He believes a smart vote is an American's greatest responsibility. Which is why his confusion about Barack Obama continues to eat at him.

    On the television in his living room, Peterman has watched enough news and campaign advertisements to hear the truth: Sen. Barack Obama, born in Hawaii, is a Christian family man with a track record of public service. But on the Internet, in his grocery store, at his neighbor's house, at his son's auto shop, Peterman has also absorbed another version of the Democratic candidate's background, one that is entirely false: Barack Obama, born in Africa, is a possibly gay Muslim racist who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

    "It's like you're hearing about two different men with nothing in common," Peterman said. "It makes it impossible to figure out what's true, or what you can believe."

    Digital rumor mill
    Here in Findlay, a Rust Belt town of 40,000, false rumors about Obama have built enough word-of-mouth credibility to harden into an alternative biography. Born on the Internet, the rumors now meander freely across the flatlands of northwest Ohio -- through bars and baseball fields, retirement homes and restaurants.

    Faced with polling that shows about one in 10 Americans thinks Obama is Muslim, the candidate's campaign has launched an aggressive effort to discredit rumors and clarify Obama's past. It created a "Fight the Smears" Web site and a new television ad that reiterates Obama's Christian faith, patriotism and family background. Dozens of volunteers have been sent to Ohio five months in advance of the election so they can spend extra time educating voters.

    But on Peterman's block in Findlay, the campaign's efforts may already be too late. A swing voter who entered this election leaning Democratic, Peterson faces a decision that is no longer so simple as a choice between Obama and Republican Sen. John McCain, he said. First, he must pick the version of Obama on which he will stake his vote.

    Does he choose to trust a TV commercial in which Obama talks about his "love of country"? Or his neighbor of 40 years, Don LeMaster, a Navy veteran who heard from a friend in Toledo that Obama refuses to wear an American-flag pin?

    Does he trust a local newspaper article that details Obama's Christian faith? Or his friend Leroy Pollard, a devoted family man so convinced Obama is a radical Muslim that he threatened to stop talking to his daughter when he heard she might vote for him?

    "I'll admit that I probably don't follow all of the election news like maybe I should," Peterman said. "I haven't read his books or studied up more than a little bit. But it's hard to ignore what you hear when everybody you know is saying it. These are good people, smart people, so can they really all be wrong?"

    'Funny about change'
    Peterman bought his single-story house here in 1959, a few months after he left the Air Force and married. His wife, Mildred, had grown up in Findlay, and they never considered moving anywhere else. On College Street, the couple found all the hallmarks of America's heartland: a house for $9,000; a neighborhood where their two boys, one handicapped, could play outside after dark; a steady "pencil-pushing" job up the road for Jim at Cooper Tire headquarters.

    The neighborhood built up around them. Leroy and Wanda Pollard came in 1962, drawn from southern Ohio by a booming auto industry that offered Leroy plenty of work as a mechanic. Mary Dunson bought the place next door in 1963. Don LeMaster, a police officer, moved in up the street with his wife, Margaret, in 1970.

    Every newcomer to the block was white, working-class and Midwestern, and the neighborhood jelled easily. They babysat for one another. They complained to one another about their teenagers. They helped raise one another's grandkids. In all, seven different families have lived on the same block of College Street for at least 35 years.

    "We all just found a great place at a great time," Leroy Pollard said.

    Peterman hung the American flag on his porch first, in 1960, and the rest of College Street followed his example. By 1980, patriotic displays had grown into an unspoken contest of one-upmanship. Sixty flags planted in one yard on Memorial Day; a living-room window painted red, white and blue; a Buckeye tree decorated with Christmas ornaments celebrating Americana; a gigantic plastic unicorn perched on a front porch and draped in an American flag.

    The entire block -- and, soon, the entire town -- shared in unabashed pride and gratefulness for the country that had given them this place. In 1968, a local congressman persuaded the House of Representatives to officially declare Findlay as Flag City, USA.

    But with their pride came a nasty undercurrent, one that Obama's candidacy has exacerbated: On College Street, nobody wanted anything to change. As the years passed, Peterman and his neighbors approached one another to share in their skepticism about the unknown. What was the story behind the handful of African Americans who had moved into a town that is 93 percent white? Why were Japanese businessmen coming in to run the local manufacturing plants? Who in the world was this Obama character, running for president with that funny-sounding last name?

    "People in Findlay are kind of funny about change," said Republican Mayor Pete Sehnert, a retired police officer who ran for the office on a whim last year. "They always want things the way they were, and any kind of development is always viewed as making things worse, a bad thing."

    We're not ready for him’
    When people on College Street started hearing rumors about Obama -- who looked different from other politicians and often talked about change -- they easily believed the nasty stories about an outsider.

    "I think Obama would be a disaster, and there's a lot of reasons," said Pollard, explaining the rumors he had heard about the candidate from friends he goes camping with. "I understand he's from Africa, and that the first thing he's going to do if he gets into office is bring his family over here, illegally. He's got that racist [pastor] who practically raised him, and then there's the Muslim thing. He's just not presidential material, if you ask me."

    Said Don LeMaster: "He's a good speaker, but you've got to dig deeper than that for the truth. Politicians tell you anything. You have look beyond the surface, and then there are some real lies."

    Said Jeanette Collins, a 77-year-old who lives across the street: "All I know for sure about Obama is that we're not ready for him."

    Only one man on College Street remains open-minded, and recently even Peterman has started to sway. Like most of his neighbors, he dislikes McCain for his stance on the Iraq war and would like to cast his vote for a president who will bring the troops home. But on a recent visit to his son's auto shop, Peterman overheard misinformed customers talking again about a Muslim in the White House.

    "I don't know. The whole thing just scares me," Peterman said. "I'm almost starting to feel like the best choice is not voting at all."

    The truth squad
    So far, those who have pushed the truth in Findlay have been rewarded with little that resembles progress. Gerri Kish, a 66-year-old born in Hawaii, read both of Obama's autobiographies. She has close friends, she said, who still refuse to believe her when she swears Obama is Christian. Then she hands them the books, and they refuse to read them. "They just want believe what they believe," she said. "Nothing gets through to them."

    The new advertisement running in Findlay, in which Obama is pictured with his white mother and white grandparents as he talks about developing a "deep and abiding faith in the country I love" while growing up in the Kansas heartland, is dismissed by residents of College Street as the desperate lies of another dishonest Washington politician. And they say that Obama's moves to put distance between himself and the Muslim community, with his campaign declining invitations to visit mosques and Obama volunteers removing two women in head scarves from the camera range at a rally in Detroit last week are just a too-late effort to disguise his true beliefs.

    For the past month, two students from the University of Findlay have spent their Tuesdays nights walking from door to door in the city to tell voters about Obama. Erik Cramer and Sarah Everly target Democrats and swing voters exclusively, but they've still experienced mixed results. Sometimes, at a front door, they mention their purpose only to have a dozen rumors thrown back at them and the door slammed "People tell us that we're in the wrong town," Everly said.

    Soon, on a Tuesday night, they'll walk down College Street -- past the American flags, past the LeMasters, past the Pollards -- and knock on Jim Peterman's front door. They will ask for two minutes of his time, and Peterman will give it to them. He will listen to their story, weighing facts against fiction. For a few minutes, he might even believe them.

    Then he'll close his door and go inside, back to his life. Back to his grocery store, back to his son's auto shop, back to the gossip on College Street. Back to the rumors again.

  • 07-01-2008 5:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    AND FINALLY THE RANT!

    Okay I have to do this in stages because the text keeps bunching all up

  • 07-01-2008 5:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

      okay this isn't going to work....damn...and i spent over an hour typing up this rant...but whenever I try to paste it into the message box from word....as soon as I hit the post button all the text bunches togetherlike in my first post in this thread you know how I normally put the DR like this? -DRwell in that first one its right next to my last word like this -DRwhy is that happening?
  • 07-01-2008 6:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    as far as the post goes, i understand excatlly how that man feels, the only thing we the voters have to go on is lies and it basically comes down to whos lies are the most believable and i am still in the up in the air on both, i don not believe that this country is ready for a black president, muslim, christian, budist of bows down to the purple people but does that make mc cain automatically the better choice? i am at a loss. 

  • 07-01-2008 8:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    Hello everyone!I am in one of those moods you get in where your BS tolerance is at a serious deficit, I read an article today that got me kinda going. And then your mind starts wandering and one thing leads to another and before you know it you feel utterly hopeless and are seriously skeptical about the possibility of a positive future for mankind as we know it. And so here we are, this is going to be on of those posts that is basically a blatant (albeit in my opinion justifiable) assault upon neo-conservativism, and the mind set of the leadership of the current republican party and its devastating effect on our people and the world at large. Because as much as we hear from conservatives and republicans that democrats and or liberals just try to talk the loudest and refuse to listen to logic, I think that is 100% backwards. I think the "smart" people (yes Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter) know that if you accuse your opponent of something it has about zero perceived weight with the public at large if those you accuse hurl the same excuse back at you. If two people are standing there and one shouts "You are a LIAR!" at one, and the other one stands agape for a moment and then yells back, "Nuh Uh! YOU are a liar!" Generally we will grant more merit to the individual who spoke first, and dismiss the rebuttal of the accused. Furthermore, right or wrong, logical or not; IF YOU ACCUSE SOMEONE OF ANYTHING IN PUBLIC EVEN IN BLATANT AND DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE AND FACT, A RESIDUE WILL REMAIN AND IT WILL ALWAYS COLOR THE OPINIONS PEOPLE WILL HOLD AND FORM ABOUT THE ACCUSED EVEN IF LATER DOWN THE LINE THAT INDIVIDUAL IS UNEQUIVOCALLY EXONERATED OF ALL FALSE ACCUSATIONThis I believe is truly the root of much of the partisan BS and the division in the country. People do this ALL the time. People (Rush, Hannity, Coulter) actually form very very successful careers upon this founding principle. Lets call it the "residue effect" and or "principle." And the sad thing is people fall for it. ALOT. In fact almost all of us do at one time or another, but as of now about half the country belongs to a party who's most vocal members and advocates do just that. They lie to their constituency and know that if they do it with a straight face or with righteous indignation (hannity, rush) they will be believed and that those that believe will tell their friends and family and it will perpetuate and multiply both the original liars influence and their agenda.I know that many of you will say "but those goddamn liberals and democrats do the exact same thing." And to you let me say this, as forthrightly and candidly as I can. You are absolutely right. The lefties do. But (again as honestly and candidly) they do not base their entire platform and ideology around this crap. And at the moment I cannot think of anything off the top of my head that is a major policy issue, or item of social importance that the democrats have employed the "lie and yell and itll stick" approach to. Whereas on the republican side, their leaders and spokesmen use this tactic by default. Here are some example.1. The absolute blatant falsehoods spread about Barack Obama. He's a Muslim, Flag pin = question patriotism, born in Africa, HUSSEIN HUSSEIN HUSSEIN, Wont salute the flag, pledge of allegiance???, No hand over heart during national anthem???, swore into office on the goddamn Koran? THIS IS REPUBLICAN BULL**** AND IT IS EVERY FING WERE ...And if you believe this crap, you either have an agenda, you are mentally incapable of thinking for yourself and verifying the facts (which is excusable if this is the case), or you have a "follower" mentality were you just dont question the ideas and concepts you are surrounded with or grew up with. It's like racism, you learn racism. You are not born with it. But if that is all you were shown from your family and your community, and you were never encouraged to question who you hear things from. Well the result is many people believing a lie. If you grew up listening to your father *** about "those goddamn liberals" this and that....or what have you...and you grew up in a very conservative part of the world, and were never encouraged to question.....you will just fall in line....and accept the limbaughs of the world.2. The Iraq War - Really WMD? Liberating the people? Saddam? Spreading democracy? AND YOU (Bush) THINK GOD TOLD YOU TO DO THIS??? Oh man are we in trouble. Sad thing is we live in a society where having the leader of a nation believe some invisible grand influence in the clouds, some giant magical fairy for all intents and purposes, that cannot in any way be verified who's very existence and history is supposedly backed by a book written in a time when people in another part of the world still believed that thunder and lightening was obviously just some guy named Thor who was killing giants and trolls in the sky with a hammer that they actually went so far as to name, is acceptable. We say to georgie boy, "yeah dude, its cool, magic fairy told you to do it no problem, yeah couple thousand of our guys get killed, couple hundred thousand of theirs, but yeah man.... you think giant mystical fairy said you should....so we're behind you on this one. Evidence? Oh come on george dont be silly....of course we wont question you...your motives..your giant goddamn fairy or your sanity. Keep on keeping on brother! Oh yeah and peace be with you..."That is what we do...and its fing astonishing....i am baffled...bam-fing-boozled right now... LOL....oh man...3. Global Warming Doesn't Exist4. LIBERALS LIBERALS LIBERALSThis is the kind of junk that (Rush, Hannity, Coulter) just spew...and that people just....believe...without question. This is how we had our civil rights stripped (homeland security).First lets get this straight right now for those that LOVE to throw the word liberal around which is almost every single conservative you meet.THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT GOES TO SHOW HOW ALMOST HALF THE COUNTRY CAN BE MADE TO REACT AND BELIEVE A CERTAIN THING EVEN IF IT IS ABSOLUTELY IDIOTIC TO DO SO AND YET THEY WILL DO SO WITHOUT QUESTION...WHAT FOLLOW IS AN EXAMPLE OF THIS....

    ...now I know Rush and Hannity and Republican leadership have gotten you used to accepting the term liberal or liberals to have a negative connotation, and they have gotten you to have a Pavlovian response to the term, its an assumed negative and it makes you angry...well...do you know the definition of the word liberal? Here...

    Liberal

    1.

    favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
    2. (often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

    3.

    of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
    4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

    5.

    favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
    6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.

    7.

    free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
    8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.

    9.

    characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
    10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.  
           

    11.

    not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
    12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.  

    13.

    of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.
    –noun

    14.

    a person of liberal principles or views, esp. in politics or religion.
    15. (often initial capital letter ) a member of a liberal party in politics, esp. of the Liberal party in Great Britain.
    —Synonyms 1. progressive. 7. broad-minded, unprejudiced. 9. beneficent, charitable, openhanded, munificent, unstinting, lavish.
    —Antonyms 1. reactionary. 8. intolerant. 9, 10. niggardly. Wow....maximum individual freedom possible (sounds almost conservative no?), freedom of action, favoring representational forms of government as opposed to a monarchy or dictator, freedom from bigotry, prejudice and they are tolerant...hmmm.. open-minded, generous....DAMN THEM!!! Huh? Okay...so let me get this straight...so Limbaugh, Hannity Coulter, Republicans and Conservatives....hate or disagree with those that believe in maximum individual freedom? Rush hates representative government and advocates prejudice and bigotry? Hmm.interesting folks...Or is it perhaps that by studying sociology we know it is far easier to control a group of individuals and manipulate them into furthering our own agenda if we give them a group to hate and blame for whatever ails them? Sounds to me like liberal was a down right idiotic choice given the alternatives....but again...I dont really expect that much out of greedy self centered people like Limbaugh anyway...So when you hear someone talking about liberals this liberals that, you are probably listening to someone who got sucked into a pool of BS...at least a little bit....obviously they havent researched the hated phrase enough to know that in fact liberal is a positive term....but again...maybe its not so much the need to have a solution to our problems or to even be right about an issue....some of us just need something or someone or somebody to hate...or blame or all of the above But I think in a majority of cases this isnt so I think most that do throw the term around arent necessarily hateful people, I think they are upset people who see alot of problems that they want dealt with...and they grew up listening to the wrong people...I really think that "neo - conservativism" has alot in common with racism in that....people believe what they hear even though...it is totally untrue....but they were not exposed to other avenues of thought, and were in fact encouraged to dislike those other groups....which explains why someone who is otherwise open minded can still be staunchly conservative and believe people like Limbaugh....its one thing to explore say another culture....like Spain, or India or what have you if you were from America....because you were never taught to hate those cultures......the problem with conservatives is that...they not only say that they are right and liberals are wrong......liberals are to be despised....belittled, mistrusted...and generally hated....So if a child decides to learn about other cultures its understandable.....but why would that same child believe its okay...to even being to explore something he has been told is wrong, hateful, misguided and dangerous...see thats the thing..part of being a conservative for many....is also the implicit dislike of "liberals" As an aside I also find it funny that an antonym for the word liberal is "intolerant" how...apropos And tell me what exactly do "liberals" advocate that is so horrible? What is it that you dislike about their views and what is it that they are proposing to do that will have an adverse effect on how you choose to live your life?As far as taxes go I'm fine with the rich getting taxed more.If a man that made 30,000 a year paid zero in taxes to the federal govt and little to state. And another man who made 20,000,000 had to pay 5,000,000 in taxes. I'd sleep just fine at night and so would that guy who takes home 15 million a year.I'm okay with that. Yes the rich already bear the greater portion of the tax "burden" but they can afford it. Those same people who have the greater tax "burden" also have a far greater percentage of the wealth in this country. And I'm not just talking in relation to your average joe. I mean in total, that top 1% has almost as much as other 99%....so I think they can handle 99% of the "burden" when it comes to taxes as well.Someone like Buffet of Gates that have billions live in a world where one of their billions is the equivalent to 28,571 people working for a full year making 35,000 a year. Let them take that tax burden because at the end of the day they will be just fine. Whereas we have to actually give a damn about gas prices and feeding our kids. Don't ask me to see the injustice when someone who makes say 5 million a year takes home only 1 million (and thats not how our tax system works by the way, but even if it did i would be hard pressed to feel bad about it) because again we are talking EVERY YEAR here....and for that one person who has to "struggle" on that million, you've got almost 30 families (middle class by the way) who have to try and make it work.As far as this presidential election goes the republicans are not an option. Because I truly can see a set of circumstances occurring where a mr. magoo...Armageddon type of scenario plays out. All we need is for mr "my friends" to go out there and start threatening Iran and declaring that countries leadership "sponsors of terrorism" and its over. A crazy guy with a vial of ebola or a nuclear weapon later. And we're toast. McCain does not have the temperament to be a president. He grew up a privileged man who was allowed to make mistake after mistake until finally one of his mistakes landed him in a POW camp where he went through total hell. Bush has taken us too low and put us at too much risk to put this country in the hands of a mistake like McCain. We can not afford it and we may not survive it to be quite blunt. And it scares me. Thats one reason why I can't vote for the guy.Why do I support Obama. Well for one, the world hates us, this is not conducive to our positive economic or physical health. And I believe a great way to send a positive message to the rest of the world that we are going to head into a different direction is to show them that the same nations people who twice put and idiotic, little *** in the white house. Have decided to democratically elect Bush's polar opposite. A black guy, with a "terrorist" sounding name, who is a liberal democrat. The world can't help but think, hmm...maybe things might be different. And I think that just symbolically Obama can and will do alot of good. Now I agree with his tax structure. I think the wealthiest should pay more taxes than the middle and lower classes, and I don't think millionaires and global corporations should ever receive tax cuts, breaks or returns.I think Obama is right when he says we need to get out of Iraq. I think it will be difficult but it is necessary, we need to change the whole mindset. He will do that McCain will not.Obama is willing to talk with people. McCain won't. I'd rather have incendiary remarks bandied about, than incendiary devices. I think that health care for everyone is a good and noble thing. Everyone gets sick, people should not have to just deal with it, there should always be options other than going into debt for the rest of your life. I'm not sure what the final solution will be, but it is a noble pursuit. Obama will pursue, McCain will not.Obama will get rid of Guantanamo Bay. McCain will not. Im sorry but if we are justified in keeping people incarcerated indefinitely. If there is truly just cause. Then it should be a walk in the park, to publicly name and charge these people. If they have doubts about their ability to convince the American public that an individual should be held. Then odds are they do not have sufficient evidence to warrant detainment. Guantanamo Bay is only neccesary when you have an evil F*** like Cheney or Bush around. If I think you have done something wrong I will tell you to your face in front of everyone and I will publicly defend my statements and build my case to support my position. I don't need to have a secret little hole to throw you in just because I think you are a bad person or have done something wrong. I will PROVE it damn it. This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS!We DO NOT spy on our citizens.We DO NOT need to hide justice.We DO NOT kill and occupy soverign nations and their people. WE are America. And we have disgraced ourselves. We have let ourselves down. But we don't have to sit here and take it, we don't have to keep screwing this up. And we shouldn't.You know what Limbaugh did that pissed me off the most? Encouraging his masses to go and falsely vote for a democrat they had no intention of voting for in the fall. Morals? Civility? Integrity? WHERE?Conservatives believe the word of God. What about bearing false witness? What about using a right THAT YOUR FOREFATHERS FOUGHT AND DIED FOR solely to play a political game! It is because of that sacrifice that I vote every damn chance I can. Because it is my duty to those that died because they could not. So that I could. People died for that right. And Rush demeaned it. turned it into a game. A petty political circus. And how many did exactly what he asked?Don't come at me with "party" of morals or integrity, because you havent a goddamn leg to stand on.Phone tapping, Voter Fraud, Guantanamo Bay, Suspension of Habeas Corpus, The occupation of a sovereign nation, betrayal of OUR sons and daughters, Illegal war, Murder, halliburton, war for profit, blackwater, using 9/11 as leverage, Lyingthat is what we've gotten from republican leadership and "conservatives" It's the leaders not the people, some are willfully complicit in the BS, but most conservative voters are good people that are part of a messed up system, but its a well designed system that keeps them from stepping back and questioning if those they follow are acting for the betterment of everyone of for themselves….they have FAITH in their leaders and their leaders are failing them…because they have their own agenda, it is because of the loyalty of conservatives and republicans (good honest traits) that their leaders have been allowed to do such harm…Okay...im going to end this rather abruptly because I'm so tired and my brain is spinning, but if more occurs to me...I will post itAnd besides I'm sure there will be plenty of responses to keep me occupied and give me more to talk aboutin summaryRepublican leaders are lying to their supports....Bush is a piece of S*** and so is limbaugh, hannity and all that... Liberals and conservatives would agree on so much if it weren't for their leaders encouraging the fight.....the only differences would likely be religious.....or stem from religion...but thats about it....we should hold fast to fact...and logic...and dismiss anyone who encourages us to blindly hate....or refuse to question....cheers all....i need to take a nap....

     

    -DR 

     

  • 07-01-2008 8:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Enough is Enough (A "liberal" rant)

    oh my goodness DR you are in a mood today. i would be tired too, go get a nap. WOW 

  • 07-02-2008 9:36 AM In reply to